[22:48] <Shadowtext> So if Yan, DF, and Sei come active, we could discuss some more AUtS stuff...

[22:48] <Jeddy> Yes.

[22:48] <Jeddy> But, they won't.

[22:48] <Shadowtext> ...I mean a weekend's a great time to work on this stuff, and we're still not to the point where we can!

[22:49] <Jeddy> We should just decide everything.

[22:49] <Jeddy> And, if we both agree on things, then that's 2/5. We only need one more vote, and we're likely to get it from someone.

[22:50] <Jeddy> I mean, it doesn't matter who agrees with us?!

[22:50] <Jeddy> As long as one more does, it's all cool.

[22:50] <Jeddy> So, if Sei agrees on one, and then Yan agrees on another that Sei doesn't like, we still get both of them.

[22:51] <Shadowtext> Most of the stuff I want to make decisions on are things like characters and stuff.

[22:51] <Shadowtext> Backstories and personalities, the sort of things that affect design, you know?

[22:51] <Shadowtext> Locations would be nice, too.

[22:51] <Jeddy> Yes.

[22:52] <Jeddy> So, how do Feet and Brains know eachother?!

[22:52] <Jeddy> And, how did they find themselves in New City!

[22:52] <Shadowtext> They have been running cons together for some time.

[22:52] <Shadowtext> I don't know exactly when they met, but they're a team for a while when the game starts.

[22:52] <Shadowtext> I've toyed with the idea that Brains has a crush on Feet.

[22:52] <Jeddy> Aw.

[22:53] <Shadowtext> Also: Brains is, while a devious thinker, unable to do most physically-involved aspects of the jobs they run. In my head, he's missing a leg.

[22:53] <Shadowtext> Although he could also just be physically inept.

[22:53] <Jeddy> Well, he could just be a total nerd?!

[22:54] <Shadowtext> I assume he will be. Except that as a conman, he's got to be socially capable.

[22:54] <Jeddy> We can make it work. Although, what exactly is the story behind the characters to begin with?

[22:54] <Shadowtext> Though iot's very possible Feet is the more charming one.

[22:54] <Jeddy> I mean, like...

[22:55] <Jeddy> Where do they come from? Are they rich kids that ran away, orphans that grew up in the home together, grew up in the same slums, or what's l'deal?

[22:55] <Shadowtext> The story we had before was that they were fairly successful con men, but that Feet was getting tired of running from the police and guards and all, so Brains mentions that a dead relative had left him a shop that he never made any use of.

[22:55] <Shadowtext> When they get there the thing's in pretty bad repair.

[22:56] <Shadowtext> I doubt they're rich kids that ran away. Or at least, I doubt that both of them are. Maybe one of them is.

[22:56] <Shadowtext> Perhaps Brains was rich but left home because of some incident, possibly the same one that lost him his leg (or that caused whatever physical ailment he's got)

[22:57] <Jeddy> I was going to say that maybe Brains was rich, but he ran off to be with Feet, if you want to go with the deal that he likes her.

[22:57] <Jeddy> But, he's a socially inept nerd and can never get her to like him back, or never notices if she does.

[22:57] <Jeddy> And, he uses her to do all of the real work, while he thinks up the ideas.

[22:57] <Jeddy> Or, rather, she uses him to do all of the thinking while doing the work herself.

[22:58] <Shadowtext> I don't want it to be to where each one is inept in the area of expertise of the other.

[22:58] <Jeddy> Yeah, good point.

[22:58] <Shadowtext> I like the idea that it's just that each of them is really good in whatever their area of expertise is, so that the other one is, while capable, totally dwarfed by comparison.

[22:59] <Shadowtext> So Brains can charm people and run cons decently well, but Feet is so good at it that she makes Brains look like a total doofus.

[22:59] <Shadowtext> Meanwhile Feet can juggle numbers and plan things out okay, but Brains is the sort of strategist that Sun Tzu wishes he was.

[23:00] <Jeddy> Aw.

[23:00] <Shadowtext> These are slight exagerrations, maybe.

[23:00] <Shadowtext> But you get the idea.

[23:00] <Jeddy> Yes, eye dew!

[23:00] <Shadowtext> They complement one another, rather than just making up for each other's weaknesses.

[23:02] <Shadowtext> But I was thinking...

[23:02] <Jeddy> I do that quite often, myself.

[23:02] <Shadowtext> ...if Brains is going to be from a rich family, maybe his family is one of the major merchants in the city.

[23:02] <Shadowtext> Maybe even The Tycoon.

[23:03] <Jeddy> Alot could be done with that. But, that brings up alot of questions like...

[23:03] <Shadowtext> Like I wouldn't want this to be a big surprise twist or anything, I would expect it to be revealed pretty early on....I don't want to make it a "Luke, I am your father," thing.

[23:03] <Jeddy> Yeah, I was just going to say. How many people would know this?

[23:03] <Jeddy> Like, would you get to the end of the game and be like...

[23:03] <Jeddy> OMG DEY R RERATED?1/1?!? LeolLEolEOL

[23:03] <Jeddy> Which I guess you're saying "WRONG!!!" to.

[23:04] <Shadowtext> Yeah, I was thinking it'd have to be the sort of thing where when the merchant's guild sent their goons, Brains would be like "Hey, Doug, what's up?" "We've come to bust up your shop, Master (Brains' Name)"

[23:05] <Jeddy> "Sorry, dood, you know what business is like!"

[23:05] <Shadowtext> Prinny, dood!

[23:05] <Jeddy> Yeah, I actually think that everyone largely knowing would be the more interesting and less lame way to do it.

[23:06] <Jeddy> I mean, you could even say that that's why the Tycoon doesn't want your shop to succeed.

[23:06] <Shadowtext> Also, I think the Tycoon doesn't like Feet AT ALL.

[23:06] <Jeddy> Your shop is run by an embarrassment to the family!

[23:06] <Shadowtext> Like even if Feet isn't aware of Brains being into her, EVERYONE ELSE is.

[23:07] <Shadowtext> Although I'm not saying she isn't aware of it.

[23:07] <Shadowtext> Though making a running gag out of her obliviousness, especially in the face of her great social awareness, would be pretty funny.

[23:07] <Jeddy> lolZ, I like it.

[23:07] <Shadowtext> One would have to explain that blind spot, though.

[23:09] <Shadowtext> But yeah, I think every once and a while people should make comments to Feet essentially assuming she and Brains are an item, or that sort of thing, and Feet would totally misinterpret.

[23:09] <Jeddy> "Hey, Feet. I hear that you and Brains like to go in through the window."

[23:09] <Shadowtext> Like "So have you and Brains ever thought of having little ones?" "What, you mean apprentices? I think we need to get the shop off the ground better before we worry about that."

[23:09] <Jeddy> "What? I always take the door."

[23:10] <Shadowtext> XD Is "Go in through the window" really going to become a euphemism in this game? XD

[23:10] <Jeddy> Why not?!

[23:10] <Jeddy> It's our game, we can make up whatever phrases we want to.

[23:11] <Shadowtext> It means we would actually have to include that stupid throwaway line of dialog we came up with before.

[23:11] <Shadowtext> About "I go in through the window, if you know what I mean!"

[23:11] <Jeddy> Yeah, but we could just use "So, are you guys going in through the window?" so much before that point that the player will get confused.

[23:11] <Shadowtext> XD The worst part is I can't even fathom what it might mean.

[23:11] <Jeddy> Or, something.

[23:12] <Jeddy> Does it matter?!

[23:12] <Jeddy> Leave it to the player to decide!

[23:12] <Shadowtext> No, I suppose it being confusing makes it even funnier.

[23:12] <Jeddy> Yes!

[23:15] <Jeddy> I think that having Brains be physically impaired in some way is probably a good idea, but I don't know if I like him missing a limb, necessarily.

[23:16] <Shadowtext> Yeah. We could just give him a bum leg, rather than a missing one, I guess.

[23:17] <Jeddy> Well, I guess that's one that will be decided whenever BIG FATTY DUMB SEI & Friends decide to actually be around for once.

[23:18] <Jeddy> We can have "Figure out what's wrong with Brains" day.

[23:18] <Shadowtext> Maybe he suffers from UAPIS.

[23:19] <Jeddy> Shadowtext, you're just making things up, now.

[23:19] <Shadowtext> Undefined Anime Physical Impairment Syndrome. Sympoms include coughing when people need to be reminded he's ill, and at some point during the narrative entering a coma from which it appears the sufferer will not wake up.

[23:19] <Jeddy> Aw...

[23:20] <Jeddy> Yeah, that's a good point. It's only a problem when it needs to be, and doesn't exist at other times.

[23:20] <Jeddy> He totally beats the badguy, but then he starts coughing after the battle and has to be taken to the hospital.

[23:20] <Shadowtext> XD Yeah. It's pretty hackneyed.

[23:21] <Jeddy> But, in my mind, things I guess work out that like...

[23:21] <Jeddy> 1. Brains is from a somewhat well-off to possibly rich family, likely related to the Tycoon.

[23:22] <Jeddy> 2. At some point, he left and met up with Feet. Whether he left to be with Feet or if he met her afterwards is up for debate.

[23:22] <Jeddy> 3. He's got some kind of problem, now, that probably didn't exist before, but keeps him in the shop and out of thieving.

[23:23] <Shadowtext> Yeah. I like the idea that whoever banished him is responsible for his condition.

[23:23] <Jeddy> Sounds like a plan!

[23:24] <Shadowtext> I don't want it to be one of those magical dealies where defeating that person gets rid of it, though.

[23:24] <Shadowtext> I mean it might very well be magical, but it's permenant even if so.

[23:47] <Yanbetari> Brains having a thing for Feet - I thought we had pretty much established this. Of course Feet doesn't get the romantic aspect of it, and Brains doesn't push it.

[23:47] <Jeddy> I didn't know that, though!

[23:47] <Jeddy> At least, I don't think I knew it.

[23:47] <Shadowtext> I wasn't sure if that had been finalized or not, Yan.

[23:47] <Shadowtext> But it sounds like it is now.

[23:47] <Yanbetari> Brains being related to the existing merchantile powers of the city. - Interesting.

[23:48] <Jeddy> Yeah, we have 3/5 for Brains liking Feet, so it's pretty much a done deal.

[23:48] <Shadowtext> Interesting good or interesting bad?

[23:48] <Yanbetari> Interesting as it has merit, but it needs to be handled well.

[23:48] <Shadowtext> Yes. It would certainly explain his skills, though!

[23:50] <Yanbetari> Random idea extrapolating on the three - Brains met Feet before his injury, while he was studying up on inheriting the family business and maintaining the status quo. Feet was a charming thief, with natural con talent, but still small time. She cons him, and he falls for her, for real.

[23:51] <Shadowtext> But for whatever reason, she likes him, too? Albeit possibly not romantically.

[23:51] <Yanbetari> They start hanging out, teaching each other their trades, so Feet learns a little business, Brains learns a little conning and thieving. At some point, this goes bad. Brains gets into a bit of thievery over his head, messes up, and gets injured.

[23:52] <Jeddy> I like the idea, but my only question is why she doesn't finish the con or just throw him out, or that kind of thing. We could probably make it work, though.

[23:52] <Shadowtext> Yeah, that's my concern.

[23:53] <Shadowtext> If we play that wrong, it either comes off that she lacks the drive to follow through on a con, or that he's a very foolish person.

[23:53] <Shadowtext> Although if he's instantly lovestruck, the second thing is easily explained.

[23:53] <GearType2> shit, and to top it all off, I was charged a month for vanguard a game I cancelled two weeks into it.

[23:53] <GearType2> perfect.

[23:54] <Jeddy> Not your month!

[23:54] <GearType2> so basically, instead of cancelling my account in april, they must of figured "maybe he was just joshin' us?" and kept it active.

[23:55] <Yanbetari> Thus Feet is more or less responsible for Brains being crippled, and worse in the eyes of his family, getting Brains possibly personally involved in criminal activities. (Of course, crime through indirect intermediaries is "just good business".) Brains decides to turn his back on his family, and bolts with Feet (who was already planning to leave after a nearly failed heist and substantial heat.)

[23:55] <Jeddy> Can't you dispute that charge, then?

[23:57] <Jeddy> Although, I remember having a similar problem when I played FFXI. I cancelled my account on like the 30th of the month, and they charged me full for the next month that I couldn't play.

[23:57] <Shadowtext> MMO people are notoriously evil about charges, Jeddy.

[23:57] <Jeddy> Because, your account is dead as soon as you cancel.

[23:57] <Jeddy> But, the next month was charged after like the 28th or something dumb like that.

[23:57] <GearType2> I cancelled my account the second week of the free month.

[23:57] <GearType2> and was charged for the month of may.

[23:57] <Jeddy> Ouch.

[23:58] <GearType2> I swear, I need a hug, I'm finding my girlfriend. haha

[23:58] <Jeddy> Uh, oh.

[23:59] <Jeddy> Oh, and I think the deal with Feet and Brains works, but I still have the question of why Feet would take Brains in with her.

[23:59] <Shadowtext> She probably feels bad about him being crippled.

[23:59] <Jeddy> Aw.

[00:00] <Shadowtext> She's okay with bilking rich folk out of money, but actually leaving him hurt weighs on her conscience.

[00:00] <Jeddy> I guess that works. I dunno. I just don't want it to turn into "They both like eachother but don't know that the other likes them".

[00:00] <Shadowtext> Yeah, Feet doesn't seem the sort who would be attracted to someone and be unable to talk.

[00:01] <Yanbetari> Well, as for Feet's feelings for Brains, I figure at the start, she just sees him as a rube who didn't know when the con was over, but there was something about him that she liked. Eventually she realizes he knew it was a con, and wants to know how, showing an intersting in the art of the con (conmanship? connery?). He then transitions from "rube" to "apprentice" (despite her being about the same age).

[00:01] <Shadowtext> I mean flirtation and seduction are a part of her job. I doubt she has any doubts about herself where that sort of thing's concerned.

[00:01] <Jeddy> I think Yan's explanation works, that way.

[00:02] <Shadowtext> Okay, so next do we flesh out the Tycoon or the Rival Thief?

[00:02] <Jeddy> RIVAL THIEF!

[00:02] <Jeddy> I like him.

[00:02] <Jeddy> He goes in through the window.

[00:03] <Shadowtext> I get the impression he's not all that clever, as far as cons go. I think thieving is his milieu, not chicanery.

[00:03] <Yanbetari> Well, we could describe her blind spot towards Brains vs. her skill at seduction/flirtation as when she's targetting a rube, she's going for classic obvious reactions, and doing a lot of cold reading and testing. She's not actively conning Brains, and they've been working together and close for a while, so some of the little things just sort of pass under her radar.

[00:03] <Jeddy> Yeah, you'd only really run into him while in the middle of pulling off a robbery.

[00:04] <Jeddy> Well, I was going to say that problems with their relationship could be related to the fact that she uses relationships for her own benefit, so she might have trouble separating real feelings from her cons.

[00:05] <Shadowtext> So you're saying like....she does like him, but she's so unused to thinking that way that she has no idea that she likes him that way?

[00:05] <Shadowtext> Or are you saying she doesn't even think that way at all?

[00:05] <Yanbetari> That works too. She's never really moved past him liking her as part of the con, so she doesn't notice there's more to it than that.

[00:06] <Jeddy> I think that the things he does to get her to like him could be seen by her as like...

[00:06] <Jeddy> "Is he trying to pull over on me what I pulled on him?"

[00:06] <Shadowtext> Hehe.

[00:06] <Jeddy> Like, she thinks he's trying to get back at her, or not so much for revenge but to test his own ability that she's brought him up in.

[00:07] <Shadowtext> I see. And she makes things extra difficult for him because she thinks they're, more-or-less, sparring when he's actually making overtures?

[00:07] <Shadowtext> So even *he's* not being very secretive about his feelings.

[00:07] <Shadowtext> XD That makes the obliviousness even funnier.

[00:09] <Yanbetari> Yeah, I like that. Her seeing it as the apprentice trying to surpass the master.

[00:09] <Jeddy> Well, I like it. He likes her, but she doesn't realize it because she only thinks of it as an attempted con, since that's what she does for a living.

[00:09] <Jeddy> It works for me!

[00:10] <Yanbetari> So, let's see. Tycoon...

[00:11] <Shadowtext> Is the Tycoon Brains' close relative, then?

[00:11] <Yanbetari> He should know Brains from before, but I don't think he should be personally related. Maybe a close friend of the family.

[00:11] <Shadowtext> Okay, so Brains' family is just a powerful family of merchants, and this guy's the chief of the guild?

[00:11] <Yanbetari> Yeah.

[00:12] <Jeddy> I agree with that.

[00:12] <Shadowtext> He probably called the guy Uncle Whatever when he was a kid, though.

[00:12] <Shadowtext> Or Aunt Whatever.

[00:12] <Shadowtext> Like not as an actual relative, you know what I mean.

[00:12] <Shadowtext> The honorific Uncle/Aunt dealie.

[00:13] <Yanbetari> Maybe his godfather, though that might even be a bit direct. But they certainly know each other personally.

[00:13] <Jeddy> YesZ.

[00:13] <Shadowtext> XD I just thought of that myself, Yan.

[00:13] <Jeddy> Yeah.

[00:13] <Jeddy> He'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

[00:14] <Shadowtext> If we make the Tycoon a lady, I'm totally picturing her as Tamaki's grandmother.

[00:14] <Yanbetari> And of course, he was right there after the accident making sure they were saving face and not disgracing the guild of merchants. Which pissed Brains off because it was more about the guild than the injured party (him).

[00:14] * FinalDragon has quit IRC (Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)

[00:14] <Shadowtext> I think Brains' parents need to be pretty bad people, though, if he's actually going to leave them and they're actually going to let him.

[00:14] <Shadowtext> Like maybe not Super Awful Kick the Dog people, but generally bad folk.

[00:15] <Yanbetari> Stuck-up uppercrust types.

[00:15] <Shadowtext> Yeah.

[00:15] <Shadowtext> Ultrayuppies.

[00:16] <Yanbetari> But he has at least one relative who's nice, as he/she is the one to leave him the shop they use as a startup. Someone who doesn't like the way the guild is running things.

[00:16] <Jeddy> They'll drive a really big carriage that has like 20 horses and gets terrible carrots-per-mile.

[00:16] <Shadowtext> Probably another black sheep.

[00:16] <Shadowtext> His father's crazy brother.

[00:17] <Jeddy> I think that works. I was wondering exactly who would leave him the store.

[00:17] <Jeddy> I was thinking it wouldn't work if he was directly related to the Tycoon in the first place.

[00:17] <Shadowtext> Who didn't even use the family name, and also really sucked at math and management, which is why his store was sort of run down and all.

[00:17] <Yanbetari> Yes, but a more acceptable one. Someone who still runs a proper shop and pays the guild it's respect, but has crazy ideas like paying workers well, or offering discounts.

[00:17] <Jeddy> I think this works better.

[00:18] <Yanbetari> Maybe he gets squeezed out by the guild later, when they start getting even more jerkish.

[00:18] <Shadowtext> He probably didn't agree to their price fixing schemes, and so was constantly having his rates raised vindictively, to edge him out.

[00:18] <Shadowtext> He died well before his time. Not from assassination or anything, he just ended up so stressed that his immune system got wrecked.

[00:19] <Shadowtext> I'm thinking he was only like mid 40s to early 50s.

[00:19] <Yanbetari> Yeah. Worked himself to death to keep his shop running as long as possible. (Also, victorian era, people didn't live as long back then.)

[00:19] <Jeddy> Yes.

[00:20] <Shadowtext> Ah, but it's STEAMPUNK Victorian. They're healthier because of steam powered scalpels.

[00:20] <Yanbetari> So while for Feet, this is just one more big con, for Brains, it's revenge!

[00:20] <Shadowtext> Or something.

[00:20] <Yanbetari> Or justice.

[00:20] <Shadowtext> I think it should slowly become personal for Feet, as well.

[00:20] <Shadowtext> As she gets more and more immersed in this world, she gets more and more disgusted by how the merchants guild is even worse than the thieves' guild.

[00:20] <Yanbetari> Well, yeah, if nothing else because the Tycoon will be taking a personal intresting in messing with them.

[00:21] <Shadowtext> I think it'd be hilarious if everyone in the Thieves' Guild was generally a better caliber of person than the upper members of the Merchants' Guild.

[00:21] <Jeddy> I think that, if the Rival Thief was hired by the Tycoon as was considered earlier, it would help in making it personal for Feet, to some extent.

[00:22] <Jeddy> And, I can see the Thief Guild being full of people just trying to make a better life for their family, whereas the Merchant Guild is full of people who only think of themselves. But, that might be just a tad lame.

[00:23] <Shadowtext> Even the Rival Thief should be better than the Tycoon. I don't suggest he become good in the end, because that'd be to RCV-alicious, but if he refused to renew his contract, or let Feet do something because it wasn't explicitly stated that he had to stop her, maybe.

[00:23] <Shadowtext> Oh, I dunno, some of the thieves in the guild might very well be greedy buggers. But at least they don't pretend like they're not!

[00:23] <Yanbetari> Yeah, but I see the Tycoon's hiring of the Rival as being a bit of a funny moment, as you may have already run into the Rival bumbling through random missions, and then the Tycoon is hiring the thief with the best reputation, which if mostly self-propgated by the Rival.

[00:24] <Shadowtext> <Feet> "WHAT?! HE'S the thief with the best reputation?!"

[00:24] <Shadowtext> <Feet> "HIM?!"

[00:24] <Jeddy> He conned the Tycoon into believe that he was the best!

[00:24] <Shadowtext> <Feet> "The Guild is going to pay for this."

[00:25] <Shadowtext> He is "The Todd" of Thievery. XD

[00:25] <Shadowtext> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Todd )

[00:25] <Yanbetari> Well, Feet wouldn't be there, so her being outraged would have to come later, but the players would get the story sequence of the hiring, and the Rival is hidden in shadow for most of the scene, and the Tycoon is all monologuing and talking about an amazingly skilled crook, then it's revealed to be the Rival.

[00:28] <BerlapSack> The Steve > The Todd.

[00:28] <Shadowtext> Who's The Steve?

[00:28] <BerlapSack> You're not cool enough to know.

[00:28] <Shadowtext> Wikipedia's first return is the Steve Harvey Show. Google's is The Steve Dahl Show.

[00:30] <Jeddy> I think we need to develop l'Rivale some more, though.

[00:30] <Jeddy> Fatty or a charmer?

[00:30] <Shadowtext> I think his talent with thievery comes from his ability to go totally blank, mentally, and operate entirely on instinct.

[00:31] <Shadowtext> And that his instincts are pretty good.

[00:31] <BerlapSack> Fat charmer. :O

[00:31] <Yanbetari> Heh.

[00:31] <Shadowtext> But when his brain is actually engaged, he's fairly stupid.

[00:31] <BerlapSack> "Hey babe, there's just more of me to love. Awwwwwwwwright."

[00:31] <Jeddy> He catches the knife thrown at him and then goes "Woah, where did that come from?"

[00:32] <Shadowtext> Falls ass-backwards into success.

[00:32] <BerlapSack> No.

[00:32] <BerlapSack> He catches the knife thrown at him and throws it back and kills the attacker and goes "It's all in the wrist."

[00:32] <BerlapSack> /kurtrussell

[00:32] <Yanbetari> Fatty is the first thing that comes to mind, because you don't associate "fatty" and "successful thief", but it's not a requirement. He should have some sort of obvious comical physical feature, though.

[00:33] <Shadowtext> Cyrano Nose?

[00:33] <Shadowtext> Baldness?

[00:33] <Shadowtext> Gigantic and Wearing a Bag Over His Head And Carrying a Huge Scalpel?

[00:33] <Shadowtext> No, wait, that's Faust.

[00:34] <BerlapSack> I wonder where I could buy a scapel like that.

[00:34] <Shadowtext> (I think Faust's mother's ancestors were Giraffes.)

[00:34] <Jeddy> I dunno. I kind of like him being a pretty boy that's entirely a moron in the end. But, that might be overdone.

[00:34] <Yanbetari> No, the Cyrano Nose tends to lead to an immediate association (considering the name you gave it.) Baldness is too generic. And just no.

[00:34] <Shadowtext> Maybe he wears a mask! Like in such a way that he thinks it's suave, like the Phantom of the Opera, but it's actually really stupid.

[00:35] <Shadowtext> Like instead of a Guy Fawkes/V For Vendetta mask, he's wearing a Pikachu Mask.

[00:35] <Shadowtext> Or something.

[00:35] <Shadowtext> Obviously not REALLY Pikachu.

[00:35] <BerlapSack> How about a person who's always shrouded in darkness regardless of the ambient light?

[00:35] <Jeddy> If he wears a mask, he should have a dramatic entrance and a stupid name related to his mask.

[00:36] <Jeddy> Well, this is a magical world, so he could have a darkness spell that's irreversable. He thought it would be cool, but it didn't work quite how he expected it to.

[00:36] <Jeddy> So, he's constantly in the shadows, even outside.

[00:36] <Jeddy> And, it doesn't really help conceal him that well.

[00:36] <Shadowtext> So in a fully lighted room, he's this big, black human shaped hole in the air?

[00:37] <BerlapSack> Yes.

[00:37] <Jeddy> I don't know if he'd be entirely black, but just like he's standing in the shadows.

[00:37] <Shadowtext> Let's go with that, base his personality on Sei and call him Shadowtail the Thief.

[00:37] <BerlapSack> He'd be all shadey and mysterious. But like. On the beach.

[00:37] <Jeddy> Yeah.

[00:38] <Shadowtext> (Shadowtail is the meaning of the scientific name for Squirrels.)

[00:38] <Shadowtext> (That's the joke)

[00:38] <Jeddy> We could have him use big words and call him Shadowtext the Thief.

[00:38] <Shadowtext> Shadowtext the Thief would be too cool for school.

[00:38] <Shadowtext> And would get distracted by shiny objects too easily.

[00:39] <Jeddy> Which would be his downfall!

[00:39] <Jeddy> I mean, he IS a thief.

[00:45] <Jeddy> So, what have we decided? Fatty in the shadows, good looking moron, VENGENCE MASK OF THE SHADOW REALM, or what?

[00:46] <Shadowtext> VENGENCE MASK OF THE SHADOW REALM.

[00:46] <Shadowtext> Oh, also, he's way over dramatic.

[00:46] <Jeddy> Yes.

[00:46] <Shadowtext> He's like a Goa'uld without the glowing eyes and super powers.

[00:47] <Jeddy> He trips as he enters the room, but pretends it didn't happen. Or, his cape gets caught on things but he keeps his serious demeanor.

[00:47] <Shadowtext> He's the sort of person who wears a cape for no good reason.

[00:47] <Shadowtext> It's not even cold!

[00:47] <Jeddy> Thank you, RPG Advocate.

[00:49] <Jeddy> But, yes. We can name him The Advocate or something. And, he will wear a stupid mask and cape for no reason.

[00:49] <Shadowtext> And when he poses, he covers part of his face with his hand.

[00:50] <Shadowtext> Like with fingers spread wide and pointing down, back of the hand pointing towards the "camera."

[00:51] <Jeddy> He should always ruin his own escapes by doing his introduction when he reaches his target.

[00:51] <Jeddy> Really loudly announcing his presence as he takes the gold statuette or whatever, alerting the victims.

[00:51] <Shadowtext> "Prepare for Trouble...?"

[00:52] <Jeddy> And, make it really fat and wearing a dumb mask and cape!

[00:52] <Jeddy> And, he should be like...

[00:52] <Shadowtext> I don't know about fat. Pudgy, maybe.

[00:52] <Shadowtext> He shouldn't be unwieldly.

[00:52] <Jeddy> "And, now I disappear into the SHADOWS FROM WENCE I CAME!"

[00:52] <Jeddy> And, wrap himself in his cape.

[00:52] <Jeddy> And, walk out of the room.

[00:52] <Jeddy> Just kind of take the door like a normal person, but be really serious about it.

[00:53] <Shadowtext> No. He goes in through the Window.

[00:53] <Shadowtext> Out, too.

[00:53] <Shadowtext> XD Or maybe "I go in through the window! But I go OUT the door..."

[00:54] <Jeddy> WHAT AN ENIGMA!

[00:54] <Shadowtext> <Feet> "What baffles me is why no one in this city locks their windows."

[00:54] <Shadowtext> That's just a joke, a'course, because we're wanting to portray him as actually being a competent thief.

[00:54] <Jeddy> Yes. To some extent!

[00:54] <Jeddy> Or, perhaps, despite being a moron.

[00:55] <Shadowtext> Maybe he has some sort of magic device that lets him walk through glass.

[00:56] <Yanbetari> <Shadowtext> I don't know about fat. Pudgy, maybe. <Shadowtext> He shouldn't be unwieldly. <- Being unweildy is the whole point of making him fat.

[00:56] <Jeddy> Oh, yeah. We wouldn't want him to be too fat if he's going in through the window, though.

[00:56] <Jeddy> That might be hard on the ladies, you know?

[00:56] <Shadowtext> I don't know how he'd be such a great thief if he's fat, though.

[00:56] <Shadowtext> I suppose he could be the "agile fat" like Silent Bob or something, though.

[00:57] <Shadowtext> "Fly fat man, fly!"

[00:57] <Jeddy> Oh. It's 2am. And, I have to be up in like 5 hours to get ready for work.

[00:58] <Shadowtext> Yeah, I need bed, too.

[00:58] <Shadowtext> We should talk more tomorrow, but at least I'm getting good images in my head.

[00:58] <Jeddy> Yes!

[00:58] <Shadowtext> Did we decide what Brains' ailment was?

[00:58] <Jeddy> Not really.

[00:59] <Jeddy> I'm thinking that a non-working leg of some sort would be adequate. He can sit behind the counter and hobble around to get stuff for customers, but definitely not sneak around quickly.

[00:59] <Yanbetari> Yeah.

[00:59] <Jeddy> It ends up being the best option, in l'end.

[00:59] <Shadowtext> Right. I was planning to give him a cane.

[00:59] <Shadowtext> Although I suppose a crutch is an option, too.

[01:00] <Jeddy> I like the cane. I mean, a crutch is more of keeping you off your leg than adding support. I'm not sure to what extent we want to disable him.

[01:00] <Jeddy> Cane is more visually appealing, at least. Or, easier to draw, I imagine.

[01:01] <Shadowtext> Easier to draw, but I don't know that it's easier to animate.

[01:01] <Jeddy> Hm.

[01:01] <Shadowtext> It's okay. I'll just tivo some episodes of House and do some gestures of his gait.

[01:01] <Jeddy> Good point, if we're going to use sprites. That would be kind of weird. Easier to draw the crutch because it goes along in normal step.

[01:02] <Jeddy> But, I should get to el bedo.

[01:02] <Shadowtext> It'll be an enriching experience.

[01:02] <Shadowtext> Yeah, me too.

[01:02] <Shadowtext> 'night all.

[01:02] <Jeddy> Yes, we will talk more 2maro!

So I thought I would give this a whirl and see what you guys think about this game. Any ideas? Who wants to join in?

Well me, obviously....I've already confirmed though, so that should be no surprise. =P

I still like the Pub Owner Sim Thing

IRC Chat Log from September 28, 5:40-6:13 PM CST

[17:40] ][: What would gameplay be like?

[17:41] Shadowtext: Well, a large part of it would be wandering around town and finding NPCs who you could either hire or try to advertise to...

[17:42] Shadowtext: ...there would have to be some other way of making money, though. Something that would take time, like crops in Harvest Moon.

[17:42] Shadowtext: A "fallback" method, as it were.

[17:42] ][: I don't know if I like that idea.

[17:42] ][: XD You're making it go way too much like Harvest Moon. I want it to be a lot less like HM.

[17:43] Shadowtext: I'm just using Harvest Moon as an example. I don't want it to be crops, but there obviously has to be some easy way of making money that isn't going to be too lucrative from the start.

[17:44] ][: What I'm saying is I don't know if I want it to be so open-ended.

[17:44] Shadowtext: ...you want a sim that doesn't give you much freedom?

[17:44] ][: I'm thinking more in terms of Scrapped Princess when they helped with the inn or in Zero no Tsukaima (yeah, you haven't seen it~) where they help in the inn.

[17:44] ][: XD I don't want a SIM.

[17:44] * Shadowtext doesn't remember when they helped at the inn in Scrapped Princess.

[17:47] Shadowtext: You need to elaborate.

[17:49] ][: I don't know exactly yet.

[17:50] Shadowtext: -_- You just want something you can cram with existential angst, is that it?

[17:50] ][: Noooo.

[17:50] ][: I'm saving all my angst for Reve.

[17:50] DFalcon: A more stereotypical RPG centered around running the adventurer's bar?

[17:50] ][: That's why I have games like Push! and Twist!

[17:51] Shadowtext: How does one make a stereotypical RPG about that, DF?

[17:51] ][: I just want to avoid those times when you're stuck doing time-consuming tasks.

[17:51] Shadowtext: But that's what all games are about.

[17:52] Shadowtext: I'm not saying they can't be fun, but they've got to use up game-time, even if they don't use up real-time.

[17:52] Shadowtext: Or if not game-time, some other sort of resource.

[17:52] Shadowtext: You can't just get money/(insert resource here) by wishing for it.

[17:52] Shadowtext: ...most of the time.

[17:55] DFalcon: Well, you could go on quests for potion ingredients or solicit help from the guild of wizards that maintains every settlement's magical city limit line.

[17:55] DFalcon: I'm not particularly pushing it, I was just trying to see what Sei meant.

[17:56] Shadowtext: Yeah, but I don't see soliciting help from the guild of wizards being much in the way of gameplay. Unless you have to defeat them in battle to get their help.

[17:56] ][: I don't exactly know... I'm gonna step back and just see what everyone comes up with. But the one thing I definitely want to avoid is a, "run around picking up crops"-like thing from HM.

[17:57] Shadowtext: Which isn't out of the question. I suppose you could be some sort of powerful wizard/warrior/whatever who has retired, and there are folks out there who have heard of you and whose affection for you would go up if you could fight them and beat them. Or maybe even lose to them in some cases.

[17:58] Shadowtext: And of course raising affection is one way to get them to work for you, or provide you some service like word-of-mouth advertising.

[17:59] DFalcon: Well, if you put them somewhere else - why should they want to come out to your (originally) backwater town, much less make the magical effort to make it bigger?

[17:59] Shadowtext: That's an option, too. Quests for recruitment rather than just quests for sellable items.

[17:59] DFalcon: "Get something from big organization" is a pretty basic way to take up time, anyway.

[17:59] DFalcon: Because you can always branch off it.

[18:01] Shadowtext: Okay, let's say you're in a partnership. Your Twic is in charge of the day-to-day management of the business, and you're in charge of "Acquisitions," let's say. You acquire whatever is needed....employees, sellable items, ingredients, land on which he can build new property, whatever.

[18:02] Shadowtext: It could be a fairly traditional RPG then, but with a very different attitude than the "save the world" sort of thing.

[18:02] Shadowtext: XD You could basically play Moist Von Lipwig.

[18:02] ][: Just watch out it doesn't turn into Suikoden there, though~

[18:02] Shadowtext: I doubt Suikoden had Moist von Lipwig!

[18:03] Shadowtext: I like the idea of playing a crook-with-a-heart-of-gold sort of person. That's basically what Enyx has become since Signal Blue.

[18:03] Shadowtext: Actually, he was a merchant, too.

[18:04] Shadowtext: In the new incarnation, that is.

[18:04] DFalcon: Heh, one last thought before I go to bed. Sponsorship ad deals for adventuring groups.

[18:04] Shadowtext: XD What, like getting them to wear your logo on their armor?

[18:04] Shadowtext: Or shoot commercials?

[18:05] Shadowtext: With some sort of "Totally not a camera" magical device?

[18:05] DFalcon: Armor logo, billboards... I don't know about commercials, depends on setting details.

[18:06] DFalcon: Logo patches could go on backpacks or animal barding, too.

[18:06] DFalcon has disconnected: Quit: FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC

[18:07] Shadowtext: Sei--thoughts? I really like this direction.

[18:07] Shadowtext: I suppose if it goes the more traditional route, there needs to be some sort of "end goal."

[18:08] Shadowtext: Are you wanting it to be linear, or non-linear? That is to say, quest-based or following the story of this little upstart's rise to glory?

[18:08] ][: I'd like a mix of both, actually.

[18:09] Shadowtext: So like you have to do quests to raise your money and all, and once you've got a certain amount the next "story segment" will start automatically?

[18:09] Shadowtext: By which I don't necessarily mean cutscene as sequence of events.

[18:10] ][: Hn. I see that working, too.

[18:11] Shadowtext: Like say you can keep "leads" in a handy-dandy journal (some of which are given to you by your partner automatically, and some of which are found talking to NPCs or doing things in dungeons), and you can do those at any time you feel like.

[18:11] Shadowtext: And then actual missions would be automatic so that you'd know they were story-based, and not just sidequests.

[18:12] Shadowtext: I'd say you could still do sidequests during missions, though.

[18:13] Shadowtext: Like the missions would not transport you to a dungeon automatically and lock you in them. At least not most of the time.

Okay, random braindump here. Drawing on the discussion above, specifically Shades partnership idea. You've got two characters who are basically NPCs, but want to live the good life of the victorious hero. So how does one get the money of a hero without being one? By being a well placed shopkeeper dealing in just that rare item that the hero really needs. So, a two man operation. One's the brains, and the player is the feet.

Game is broken into general phases, with each phase being topped off by a story progress mission. This missions are triggered by the shop reaching some level of success, such as it's value reaching 10k Gold.

Example: First phase - Get a shop. To get a shop, you need land, building materials, and laborers. Those are your first three goals, which are obtained through missions of small heroics or just random monetary gain.

Resources - To keep your shop growing and running, you need resources. A few general ideas.

1. Rare/legendary items - These give an immedate boost to the shop's funds. One shot though. Alternately, the player can wield/wear/use them to become more powerful.

2. Item recepies - If you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. If you find a recepie to make fish from raw materials, you can sell him a fish at a 20% markup every day of the rest of his life. Once you have a recepie, it adds that item to your store's inventory, and as long as you have the raw materials to make it, you keep it in stock and profit off of it. Cheap ones might be just lying around. Moderate ones might be better hidden or require small quests to find. Expensive ones take a long quest and lots of time to find, but provide the best profit margin and the most useful items.

3. Raw Materials - Mines, forests, mystic springs. These are where you get the pieces to make use of the recepies. You'd want these to grow with your recepie collection, as having materials with nothing to make is waste.

4. Land/buildings - Limiting factor. You need enough space to support your manufacture and sales force. Expanding allows you to do more, and opens up new options.

5. Staff - Another limiting factor. You need manpower to do your work.

6. Reputation - If people like you, they buy more. If people don't, they go elsewhere.

7. Cash - Ultimate goal. Everything goes towards making this, which is then used to supply the player and pay for missions to obtain more resources.

*Yan

I'd like to add another resource or two:

8. Permits - Limiting factor. One must have the proper government permits for the business to expand its premises, add stories, or begin offering new services. Permits would most likely be Story Mission prizes, though it's possible that there could be some "secret permits" that provide a new revenue / mission source. Getting permits might require you to do little "missions" for government officials or guild leaders.

9. Sponsorship Contracts - DF actually mentioned this one. As parties of adventurers pass through your shops, or as you run into them in dungeons*, you can give them (rather than sell them) items in exchange for them becoming walking billboards, so to speak. Increases revenue permenantly. The degree is based on the adventurers' party. Obviously the higher level parties are only going to be found in the higher level dungeons.

10. Events - An extension of the Sponsorship concept, by throwing some money at certain events (like circuses or tournaments or whatever), you get advertisement at said event. Brings in a temporary multiplier to income, for as long as the event is taking place.

11. Packs - Sorta like Bags of Holding. Storage space could be an important resource for the player to deal with, as carrying items for the solving of quests or for selling will be key to success. So upgrading the amount of items he can carry might be a good limiting resource. There could also be "Warehouse Space" for the store that filled the same role as the pack for the player.

* - This is an idea that I think would be pretty neat to look into. As the player explores dungeons, he can run into adventurer parties, and maybe even try to sell him things from his inventory. Obviously one would include a convenience fee, so items sold in the dungeon should bring in a lot more money than items sold in the shop. Perhaps a sidequest could open up the option to sell the characters anything in the Warehouse.

Okay, time for my braindump.

Can I assume we're agreed that this is going to be an equipment shop rather than a pub, at least as the starting point? Let me then mention a couple things from Taloon's chapter in DW4 I'd prefer to avoid:

-Walking into dungeons and finding lots of equipment that could be sold immediately to anyone. If adventurers can do this, why do any of them need weapon shops in the first place?

-Being able to sell for more money than the local competition.

-Some particular amount of money as an end goal. I think the thing here is that once the player gets stuff built up to a reasonable level, they could potentially coast on a moderately successful strategy. What we want them to do is keep doing quests and expanding influence until they reach whatever critical point.

-Along the same lines, in a game like this it may be sillier than usual to let the player casually amass enough liquid cash to buy small nations.

---

What I've thought of in positive terms, then:

-Recent developments have allowed people to cross a formidable natural barrier (mountain range, oceans, whatever) into a previously unexplored land. This has resulted in a number of small outposts springing up. But the trip from civilization is difficult and somewhat risky - hence, it's expensive and inconvenient to bring in cargo. At the same time, the new land is a wild land, with all manner of monsters - adventurers' paradise, in a sense - causing increasing demand for equipment and equipment repair.

-Our pair, originally adventurers themselves, very early into the game discover a tomb or abandoned cache or something with a bunch of weapons and armor, but they need significant repair and no one in the area is really equipped for it. They take out a loan to have a forge and other repair tools brought over, and basically end up with the capability to have a decent little repair business plus some seed money to expand.

-From there, half the game might be a sort of transport tycoon x shop-management hybrid: opening up paths and paying to have shipments of resources made and guarded, managing them to match the adventurer demands, as well as advertising, sponsoring (for just advertising, for guards, for misc. info they may pick up or loot they personally wouldn't be so interested in, or for getting them to do something in place A instead of place B), exploring the map in increasing fineness, supplying the town guard in order to expand... (Unsurprisingly tentative.) For the rest, going on missions to find or exploit new resources, make business deals with groups for them to supply your shop or vice-versa, opening up new routes, emergency deliveries, maybe clean out a dungeon personally once in a while just for fun, and of course "story missions" such as getting new permanent shop members. These would probably work with parties with a core of a few permanent shop members maybe supplemented by NPC adventurers from the settlement's pool.

-Goal: Expanding deeper into the unexplored land sounds like a pretty good reason to trigger stronger enemies and stuff.

DF

IRC Chat Log from October 1, 6:36-7:14 PM CST

[18:36] Shadowtext: Okay, so as far as RPG class archetypes go, I'm seeing the main character as being a thief-type. That is to say, heavily reliant on finesse and speed, and not very strong in melee combat or attack-type magic.

[18:37] Shadowtext: The partner, who probably would not be taking part in any battles, would be the intelligent but physically weak type, but for one reason or another couldn't become a very strong wizard.

[18:38] Shadowtext: I think that it'd be better if we put a focus on avoiding combat, though. That is, there should be combat, but if the character were any good at combat, he/she would've signed up with an RPG Hero Party or a Villain Party or something.

[18:38] Shadowtext: So I see stealth being a good thing. Like trying to sneak past or trick dungeon bosses into giving up treasures, rather than trying to defeat them.

[18:38] Shadowtext: Possibly battle could be based on deception rather than damage dealing ability.

[18:39] Yanbetari: Well, I think combat should be an option, just usually not the best optiion.

[18:40] Shadowtext: Right. Like you could use it as an opportunity to steal and such, but you'd probably get walloped pretty bad in a lot of cases.

[18:40] Shadowtext: I'd also suggest doing away with Game Overs if we did it that way. That is, have the main character wake up in a hospital or something rather than dying.

[18:43] Yanbetari: Yeah.

[18:43] Shadowtext: ...with a bit of money taken away, obviously, to pay for the hospital bills.

[18:44] Yanbetari: And perhaps some of your items, including whatever item you got smashed trying to retrieve.

[18:45] Shadowtext: Or perhaps just having a Hero Party beat you to the quarry if you die in the middle of a mission.

[18:45] Yanbetari: Well, maybe for non-core missions.

[18:45] Shadowtext: Right, well obviously the story missions would be unfailable.

[18:45] Yanbetari: But you wouldn't want one mission failure prevent you from ever progressing again.

[18:46] Shadowtext: True. Maybe just have certain missions failable. Like ones that tie into some story arc that gives you super cool bonuses.

[18:46] Shadowtext: You'll never get the Philosopher's Stone and therefore never open up the final tier of Alchemic products, for example.

[18:48] Yanbetari: Yeah, but even then complete irrecoverable failure should be a bit hard.

[18:49] Shadowtext: You mean hard to fail, or hard to pass?

[18:51] Yanbetari: Hard to fail irrecoverably. So you could lose, but it would require some real high quality losing to prevent you from trying again.

[18:52] Yanbetari: Maybe have X chances at it before you can't try again, where X is dependent on some previous factor, like finding X of the mystic widgets of whatsits.

[18:53] Shadowtext: I think I need to get a better feel for the specific personalities of the main characters. That is to say, who they are, rather than what they are.

[18:56] Yanbetari: Backstory, personality, motivation?

[18:57] Shadowtext: That sort of thing, yes.

[18:57] Shadowtext: Part of the motivation/backstory is shaping up before me. They wanted to be RPG heroes, but could not, lacking certain skills.

[18:58] Shadowtext: So instead they use the skills they've got (subterfuge, chicanery, charisma, and heads that are good with numbers) to make their way in the world.

[18:58] Yanbetari: Yeah. Not up to hero calibur, but they still want the perks.

[18:59] Shadowtext: Right. Not quite hero-caliber morals, either, though they're not evil. Like I said, Tulio and Miguel types. Or Niccolo from Legend of Mana.

[18:59] Shadowtext: C.M.O.T. Dibler. Moist von Lipwig.

[19:01] Yanbetari: Yeah.

[19:10] Yanbetari: They should probably have been working together for a time as of the start of the game, which is why the player character can trust the brains.

[19:11] Shadowtext: Right. This particular plan will be new for them, though. Up until now they've been matchstick men, pulling small schemes and whatnot. And now they're going to try to run a business because they can cheat even more people, only the government will actually encourage them. Or something.

[19:12] Shadowtext: Perhaps when the game has started, they've just gotten out of holding or jail for some minor crime.

[19:12] Shadowtext: No, wait....I'm not sure if I like the idea that they were bad enough at it to get caught.

[19:13] Shadowtext: Perhaps....perhaps they're getting tired of always having to watch their backs, or something, and then one of them gets a letter about an uncle who has died and left him/her a small, rundown shop.

[19:14] Yanbetari: Maybe they just dodged trouble. A scheme gone bad that almost landed them in jail.

[19:14] Shadowtext: So they decide to try to make it profitable. And if it doesn't work out, they can always burn it down for insurance.

To combine Yan and my conversation from Oct 01 with DF's suggestions:

- The game opens with the characters inheriting the shop from a dead but distant relative or whatever, having a small cache of basically useless items available from the beginning.

- The prologue will consist of the characters realizing that the relative's stock of items is not only dwindling, but pretty lame to start with, and seeking out a cache of items.

- Perhaps they have or acquire a treasure map? At any rate, at first they don't realize that the items in the cache are going to be in ill repair. This is when they have to start hiring employees.

- Chapter 1 will begin with a search for good blacksmiths who can repair the cache, and begin introducing missions to find other caches after that.

And those are my thoughts for the moment.

Chat log from October 2

[21:19] <Shadowtext> So yeah, since we're all active, we should probably have a rap session.
[21:19] <Shadowtext> I'll start: I'm Shadowtext and I'm here to say...
[21:21] <Shadowtext> No, seriously, we should talk about wossname. Like a name would be good. For the game, for instance, or the characters. Genders, personal histories and futures, giant anteater-lizards...
[21:23] <Shadowtext> What, no ideas?
[21:23] <Umbaglo> The heroes should all be chipmunks
[21:24] <Shadowtext> Hmm. That would make resource gathering somewhat difficult.
[21:25] <DFalcon> Well, I like the con-men angle.  "Diverting" resources from the stolid, dangerously inflexible (or choose your own flaw) established equipment mercantile.
[21:26] <DFalcon> The Lipwig stuff, to be brief.
[21:26] <Shadowtext> Yeah, that's what I heard when you said that.
[21:29] <DFalcon> I don't think I'd go too strong on "wanted to be adventurers".
[21:30] <DFalcon> Actually, with all the Discworld stuff being thrown around, Nobby comes to mind.
[21:30] <DFalcon> Looting battlefields, specifically.  Our guys could have been like adventurer remoras.
[21:31] <Shadowtext> Hehehe. Yeah, I can see that.
[21:32] <Shadowtext> They've got to be loveable scum, though. They can't be outright awful. Pulling off a successful "Always Sunny in Philadelphia" cast is difficult.
[21:33] <DFalcon> Philadelphia?
[21:34] <Shadowtext> Is that not how it's spelled?
[21:35] <DFalcon> No, it is.  I just didn't know the reference.
[21:35] <Shadowtext> It's a television show on cable. It's not running new episodes at the moment, but it's like Seinfeld, only where the characters in Seinfeld were just generally unsavory people, the people in Always Sunny are genuinely awful people.
[21:35] <DFalcon> And yeah, I agree.  Even Dibbler-level salesmanship can't bring in repeat customers if they're getting Dibbler-level swords.
[21:39] <DFalcon> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff800/fv00737.htm Read this and the next two.
[21:41] <Shadowtext> Yes, that's sort of the attitude. Though I'd expect at least one, and maybe both of our guys would need to be on the ball enough to know exactly whether or not they were committing a crime.
[21:42] <][> XD Haha.
[21:51] <DFalcon> I'd think both, though with the "feet" partner checking with the "brains" if something felt murky.
[21:53] <Shadowtext> Yeah. The brains partner is smarter, but the feet partner is better with people, as I see it.
[21:53] <Shadowtext> By smarter, I mean "better able to move numbers around and guess the outcome of patterns and suchlike."

Enough is coming together that we can start making pages for the game itself, I think. So I'll be building a few of them. We can still talk here, though things relating to certain areas might need to start being compartmentalized and other big words.

Meantime, we need some names so I can start thinking of the characters as "Brains" and "Feet."

EDIT: Just added the Characters Page. The link has also been added to the top of this page.

EDIT 2: Just added the Battle System Page. Again, added the link to the top of hte page.

IRC Chat Log from October 15, 5:33-6:51 PM CST

[17:33] Shadowtext: Oh, by the bye....Sei or DF--any ideas for a name for our project? Even a working title would be good.

[17:35] Shadowtext: Given our working names for the characters (Brains and Feet) I was thinking an allusion to Dr. Seuss's "Oh the Places You'll Go" line "You've got brains in your head and feet in your shoes; You can steer yourself any direction you choose."

[17:38] Shadowtext: Maybe "Anything Under the Sky." It could be a reference both to OtPYG as well as what Brains and Feet are willing sell.

[17:40] Shadowtext: Plus it's an unusual title and therefore memorable, that sounds like it has some depth to it.

[17:55] ][: Loot!

[17:55] Shadowtext: But it's an RPG. I thought Verb! games couldn't be RPGs.

[17:57] ][: Verb! games are just games influenced more by gameplay.

[18:01] Shadowtext: Hmm. This seems as much setting oriented as it is gameplay oriented, though.

[18:02] Shadowtext: And setting's sort of a story type of thing, right?

[18:05] ][: True~

[18:06] Shadowtext: >_< Great. I've found NEW bugs in Simeon.

[18:06] Shadowtext: At least they're not the old ones, though.

[18:06] Shadowtext: Two steps forward, one step back.

[18:08] Shadowtext: And we still need a judge.

[18:15] * Yanbetari has joined

[18:16] Shadowtext: Yan! Good, that's all four.

[18:16] Shadowtext: We're discussing a title, or at least a working title for the thingy.

[18:16] Shadowtext: DF is idle, though, so hasn't chimed in.

[18:17] Shadowtext: Sei suggested "Loot!" I suggested "Anything Under the Sky," a reference to "Oh the Places You'll Go," since our main characters' working names reminded me of the book.

[18:17] Shadowtext: Also a reference to what they sell.

[18:19] Yanbetari: I like "Anything Under the Sky" better than "Loot!", as this seems a bit complex for your usual Verb! game.

[18:20] ][: Anything Under the Sky works fine.

[18:42] Shadowtext: XD Oh my god.

[18:42] Shadowtext: I just realized something...

[18:42] Shadowtext: ...something that might necessitate changing the working name.

[18:43] Shadowtext: Anthology -> Anywhere -> Anything (Under the Sky)

[18:43] Shadowtext: All three start with "An."

[18:43] Shadowtext: The last two starting with "Any."

[18:43] ][: XD Keep it.

[18:44] Shadowtext: Our group projects are going to develop a nomenclature entirely on accident.

[18:44] Shadowtext: I suppose Project No breaks the mould there.

[18:46] Yanbetari: What's Project No?

[18:46] Shadowtext: That thing we tried to do with shqua a billion years ago.

[18:47] Shadowtext: On the other hand, each of our group projects have been more successful than the one before it, at least. That's a good sign. Anthology got much further a long than Project No, Anywhere nearly got finished (and still might one day) and didn't go all weird, maybe Anything Under the Sky will be a rousing success!

[18:49] Yanbetari: Could be. Also, with a hard deadline not imposed by the team, we might be able to motivate people more.

[18:50] Shadowtext: Yes. Plus it's pretty simple, all told.

[18:50] Yanbetari: More or less.

[18:50] Yanbetari: Do we actually know dates for official start and deadline yet?

[18:51] Shadowtext: No. I think they said it'll probably be Nov-Dec.

IRC Chat Log from November 11-12, 21:09 PM-00:48 AM CST

[21:09] * Shadowtext * So I thought of adding another specialist who can reverse engineer any item you give him and thus allow your workers to create more of them.

[21:10] * ][ * We're sticking to employees as a "static party," right?

[21:10] * ][ * Like, you get this specialist and keep him throughout, yeah?

[21:11] * Shadowtext * Maybe the higher "level" the item being deconstructed, the longer it takes for the reverse engineer to figure it out. I was also thinking that the "Mass Produced" special items would sell for only a fraction of the cost of a unique item, but that when they're mass produced, you can keep getting money off of them.

[21:11] * Shadowtext * Yeah, that's what I was figuring. I suppose we could let you switch out workers if we wanted to add that mechanic. Recruit specialists with better stats...

[21:11] * ][ * I was thinking of employees that don't do their job well and so you fire them and hire new ones. But then that's just overcomplicating things.

[21:11] * Shadowtext * I dunno. It also makes for deeper gameplay, which could be good.

[21:11] * ][ * No. The gameplay should be in finding the items.

[21:11] * Shadowtext * ...and it would give us a reason to have more NPCs who were actually useful, too.

[21:12] * ][ * T_T I was used like a a heart container.

[21:12] * Shadowtext * Maybe make almost all of the NPCs recruitable, for instance.

[21:12] * Shadowtext * Huh?

[21:12] * ][ * To Berlap

[21:13] * ][ * After some more Reve, I'll do interface stuff.

[21:13] * Yanbetari quietly hides his lack of work on AUtS.

[21:13] * ][ * I need to find AUtS music for inspiration, too!

[21:13] * Shadowtext hasn't done anything, either.

[21:13] * Shadowtext * Well, I say "anything," but I've done a little.

[21:14] * Yanbetari * I've done nothing since brainstorming, but I can blame you for that, because you sprung us using RMXP on me like 2 days after contest start.

[21:14] * Shadowtext * I thought you knew.

[21:14] * Shadowtext * Sei knew.

[21:15] * Yanbetari * No one told me.

[21:16] * Yanbetari * And there's so much I'd rather be doing know than learning some new scripting langauge.

[21:17] * Shadowtext * As I've said a few times, I'll handle the bulk of the scripting, since I assume I'm the best in the group anyway.

[21:17] * Shadowtext * And probably force Sei to handle interface scripting!

[21:17] * Shadowtext * Since he's so keen on interface anyway!

[21:18] * Yanbetari * Well, then I'm not sure what I should be doing then.

[21:19] * Shadowtext * There's all sorts of stuff. Mapping, plot, and of course each of us is going to handle quite a few of the quests and missions a piece.

[21:20] * Shadowtext * That is to say, each of us will probably handle a quarter of the quests, unless one of us doesn't want to I suppose...

[21:25] * ][ * Hn.

[21:27] * ][ * I do feel bad, because I honestly thought you knew, Yan. But I still say RMXP is the better way to go in this. Not only as a group project, but with how dynamic a lot of our systems are.

[21:35] * Yanbetari * ... SEI!

[21:35] * ][ cries and runs.

[21:36] * Yanbetari * WTF is this? I tried installing RMXP, and it comes back saying it's got a trojan in it!

[21:36] * ][ * Uh. Wait what?

[21:36] * FinalDragon * Do you have the legal version?

[21:37] * ][ * I just scanned it and didn't get anything.

[21:40] * Yanbetari * Well, according to NAV, RPGXP.exe has one called "Bloodhound.Downloader" in it.

[21:40] * ][ * o.O

[21:41] * Shadowtext * Sei's been infected!

[21:41] * Shadowtext * Not generally a newsworth statement, so perhaps I should rephrase it as "Sei's computer has been infected!"

[21:43] * ][ * Wait. I'm pretty sure I sent you the trial version!

[21:44] * Shadowtext * So then, did we decide to go with a changeable lineup of workers (and thus have tons of recruitable NPCs), or a single, static lineup?

[21:44] * ][ * Single, static.

[21:44] * ][ * ST, stop broadening this project. XD

[21:44] * Shadowtext * Fine, fine, that can be for the sequel.

[21:45] * Shadowtext already has ideas for the sequel.

[21:45] * ][ * Yeah yeah whatever.

[21:45] * Shadowtext * XD Dude, even if you guys don't help me, I'm going to want to do a follow up to this.

[21:45] * Shadowtext * Though hopefully you'll be so proud of it that you *will* want to help me.

[21:46] * Shadowtext * We chould pitch it to an actual publisher and see if they'd let us make it and then publish it for us.

[21:46] * Shadowtext * could, rather.

[21:46] * ][ * Yes. My priority right now, though, is being proud of releasing something.

[21:46] * ][ * ... uh.

[21:46] * Shadowtext * XD Right, right, that's for later.

[21:47] * Shadowtext * Make it for DS or something. Since that's the only platform that's still well-inclined towards 2D.

[21:48] * Yanbetari forces you all to learn Javascript and use Sphere! >:E

[21:48] * Shadowtext knows Javascript and has used Sphere. RPG Maker XP's just better.

[21:50] * Yanbetari * Sphere's also open source and thus free legally.

[21:50] * Shadowtext * Yes, which shows. "You get what you pay for," after all.

[21:50] * Shadowtext * It's open source?

[21:52] * Yanbetari * Yes.

[21:52] * Shadowtext * Ah, being on Sourceforge I guess it'd have to be.

[21:52] * Shadowtext * I didn't remember it being open source, though.

[21:52] * Shadowtext * Not that it changes things. Just interesting to find open source projects.

[21:54] * Shadowtext * Y'know....Bimini Road probably *ought* to come up with a logo before we have to release this.

[21:54] * Shadowtext * Something to put in the credits, y'know.

[21:54] * Shadowtext * "Bimini Road presents..." sort of thing.

[21:55] * ][ * You really know how to prioritize things, huh?

[21:55] * Shadowtext * XD My methods work!

[21:55] * Shadowtext * ...and are BRILLIANT!

[21:55] * ][ * I so worry for this project.

[21:56] * Shadowtext * No worries! It'll be ace.

[21:56] * Shadowtext * So, are we going to have a full world available to Feet, or just the area surrounding the City?

[21:57] * Yanbetari * You want a logo, I can do that without this stupid program.

[21:58] * Yanbetari * Just keep it to the city for now.

[21:58] * Shadowtext * We also need: a name for the city, a name for the shop (possibly customizable but there should be a default), and to start collecting ideas for the layout of the city as it should be fairly large, and maybe even sectioned off into districts.

[21:59] * Shadowtext * You mean "the whole game takes place in that city," or "keep it to the areas around the city?"

[21:59] * Shadowtext * Either one could work, but I had not thought about everything taking place in the city itself.

[22:00] * Shadowtext * If we make the city big enough, it could easily house any dungeons we needed to include....obviously we wouldn't have a Fire dungeon and an Ice Dungeon, but that'd add to the "Unique" atmosphere that AUtS is all about.

[22:01] * Shadowtext * And if it's like the New York City of the game world, there's no reason that tons of the best equipment and a lot of the best artisans in the world couldn't exist there...

[22:01] * Yanbetari * I mean the city and the surroundings, but not a whole world where you can go visit other citites.

[22:01] * Shadowtext * ...yeah, I'm really getting into the idea of the whole game being in one sprawling metropolis.

[22:02] * Yanbetari * Really, what would be neat would be if the city started kind of small but as your shop prospered, it caused the city to expand over time.

[22:02] * ][ * What kind of dungeons would there be, then?

[22:02] * Shadowtext * Hmm. I just don't know if that'd be easily explainable in a single generation, though...

[22:02] * Shadowtext * Maybe you're just not allowed in the "rich parts" of the city until you become respected merchants or something.

[22:04] * Shadowtext * Sei--there could easily be caves accessible from within the city, as well as museums and towers and things.

[22:04] * Shadowtext * And the slums themselves could almost be a dungeon.

[22:04] * Yanbetari * Yeah, and they wouldn't be the sort of thing you have to clear out all at once. There might be multiple pieces that could each be cleared independently.

[22:05] * Shadowtext * And crime bosses and the like could have private collections to be raided.

[22:06] * Shadowtext * Okay, now here's another thought: big cities traditionally don't occur until about the time of the Industrial Revolution. What time period/technology level is this game set in? Victorian/Steampunk or Modern Urban Fantasy seems most appropriate now, though I had been assuming Medieval Fantasy up until now.

[22:07] * Shadowtext also thinks there's at least one ancient castle within the city walls which would provide a nice dungeon that would be less "urban." It'd probably either be government-owned or else belong to some really, really rich merchant.

[22:08] * Yanbetari * I had been figuring kind of Victorian Fantasy, or maybe kind of a Magical Industrial Revolution.

[22:08] * Yanbetari * But it'd have to be a later epoch to allow for the kind of capitalist rise from the slums story that we're going for.

[22:09] * Shadowtext * Victorian could handle that, I think. London in that era would be pretty capitalist and all, right?

[22:11] * Yanbetari * Probably, but it should still have a level of fantasy in it.

[22:11] * Shadowtext * Do we have/Can we make the proper resources for this sort of setting, though?

[22:11] * Yanbetari shrugs.

[22:27] * Yanbetari * Do we have to, really? I mean, is everyone else pulling amazing custom crap out of their staff?

[22:27] * Shadowtext * Professionalism is everything, Yan!

[22:27] * Kaiterra * That's an amateur attitude.

[22:28] * Shadowtext * Well yeah. Professionals can afford to be unprofessional because they have nothing to prove.

[22:28] * Kaiterra * Right.

[22:28] * Kaiterra * Once you kicked yourself in the ass enough, then you can have fun?

[22:28] * Shadowtext * Right.

[22:28] * Shadowtext * Exactly.

[22:29] * Yanbetari * I'll have a professional attitude when someone starts paying me to make games.

[22:29] * ][ * You want to make resources, ST?

[22:30] * Kaiterra * He can make some bowlegged charsets with broken arms.

[22:30] * Shadowtext * Not really. I've got to do scripting.

[22:30] * ][ * Yeah. Let's work with what we have.

[22:38] * Shadowtext * Okay: Our first goal should be to get a decent map of the city, I think, to know what we're working with. A name for it, the shop, Brain and Feet are needed too. I'll start coming up with some of the groundwork for the shop system. Sei, you're still working on interfaces, right? Any mockups or anything? Or do you need me to enumerate the interfaces that'll be necessary first?

[22:39] * Shadowtext * Actually, since I know you haven't done anything, when I say "any mockups or anything," I should say "any mockups or anything planned / being planned / whatever?"

[22:40] * ][ * I'm messing around with stuff right now, actually.

[22:40] * Shadowtext * All right. I'm going to go take a bath and start thinking about how I might "spine" the shop.

[22:53] * Yanbetari gets to work... on something completely different.

[23:22] * Shadowtext * Okay, new thought: Some of those "Specialists" I listed before will no longer be employees, but businesses set up in the town who provide services. I'm thinking there'll be several other services too.

[23:22] * Shadowtext * Like maybe to sell maps you have to set up a contract with a printer.

[23:22] * Shadowtext * Haven't decided whether the blacksmith will be an employee or a contractor, though.

[23:22] * ][ * Hn. I like that idea.

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[23:31] * Yanbetari * ¤WB (Umbaglo) WB¤ - We get to start the comic without causing massive property damage? This comic is about massive property damage.

[23:37] * Yanbetari * You might want the smith to be an employee if you manufacture weapons and such. Another example of a contracter might be a carpenter to expand your shop.

[23:37] * ][ * What do we need to show in th main menu?

[23:37] * Shadowtext * Yeah, I was thinking that too, Yan.

[23:38] * Yanbetari * Main menu: Status, Shop status(?), Equipment (if any), inventory, known "cons", exit...

[23:39] * Kaiterra * Shoop status.

[23:39] * Shadowtext * Yeah, Shop Status is a good idea. Keep track of how things are going back there. Maybe we can come up with a Magitechnical Explanation.

[23:39] * Shadowtext * You might also want to have a method of keeping track of "game time," since I'm thinking of a few features that might be dependant on it.

[23:40] * Shadowtext * For instance, the shop's coffers would be updated weekly, and I was thinking about things like taxes, guild fees, mortgages, and the like that might also depend on time.

[23:40] * Shadowtext * So perhaps a calender that would show when those things were coming up.

[23:41] * Yanbetari * Time of day as well, though that might just be part of the HUD. Shops obviously wouldn't be open 24/7, and doing less lawful sneaking about would be best done after dark.

[23:42] * Shadowtext * Right-o.

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[23:52] * ][ * Arrr.

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[23:59] * Yanbetari * ¤WB (Ebanis) WB¤ - "I don't get it. What is it about a school uniform that turns fanboys like you into drooling morons?" -Seraphim

[23:59] * Umbaglo * ¤WB (Ebanis) WB¤ - Dude, I look like a ferret.

[23:59] * Xoshe * *WB(Ebanis)WB* - Philbright Westriverside Warehouserock XXVII

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[00:12] * ][ * This is hard.

[00:14] * ][ * I have like, no idea for the style at all.

[00:26] * Kaiterra * Hey Yentl, am I on the internets?

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[00:40] * ][ * Can you paste again what the main menu should have, please? Someone?

[00:41] * Kaiterra * Sat Nov 11 | 11:40 pm | Main menu: Status, Shop status(?), Equipment (if any), inventory, known "cons", exit...

[00:41] * Shadowtext * Also calender and clock.

[00:41] * ][ * Gracias~!

[00:41] * Shadowtext * (Game calender, game clock)

[00:41] * ][ * Hn. Calendar.

[00:42] * Shadowtext * Also, the inventory needs to be limited in number of items carryable, though it should be upgradeable.

[00:45] * ][ * How should the calendar be?

[00:46] * Shadowtext * I suppose it could just be a weekly calender, rather than a monthly.

[00:46] * Shadowtext * Just a view of the next seven days, and maybe little stamps for certain events.

[00:46] * ][ * Gotcha.

[00:47] * Shadowtext * Red stamps for days that payments or taxes are due, I suppose....maybe green stamps for good days, though I haven't come up with any of those yet.

[00:48] * Shadowtext * I guess NPCs could set appointments, and maybe we could have some events every now and again.

IRC Chat Log from November 21, 7:28-8:22 PM CST

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[19:53] * Shadowtext * I've updated a few pages on the Wiki. Specifically check out: http://biminiroad.pbwiki.com/Plot%20Outline%20(AUtS) and http://biminiroad.pbwiki.com/Scenarios%20(AUtS)

[19:57] * Yanbetari * Hrm. Interesting direction. I like it, though I'm not sure about the grand finale bit.

[19:58] * Shadowtext * DF wanted a big climax rather than just a "Game is now over" sort of thing. Or did you mean the Epilogue?

[19:59] * Yanbetari * No, I meant the Climax, and I agree we need some sort of finish, but I'm just not sure on the direct confrontation thing. It seems kind of odd. Though I suppose you could have a bunch of single use "dirt" items that really "hurt" the Guild Master.

[20:00] * Shadowtext * I agree that a battle doesn't seem the proper sort of thing, but on the other hand I'm thinking players might feel gypped if they don't get to fight a boss.

[20:01] * Shadowtext * I'm open to other suggestions, I just don't want it to be disappointing gameplay-wise.

[20:02] * Yanbetari * I suppose an influence duel is probably the best way of implementing a "boss fight". I'm getting mental images of Feet and the Guild Master sitting in front of a Guild auditorium, duking it out Pheonix Wright style.

[20:03] * Shadowtext * I could see that, but it would feel like a minigame unless we have other battles of that sort throughout the game.

[20:03] * Shadowtext * I actually really like the idea, I'm just not sure where else it could be implemented.

[20:04] * Yanbetari * Dunno, but I'll think about it.

[20:05] * Shadowtext * Hmm. Maybe if you go to Public Assemblies or something....that'd give the Calender another thing to keep track of, and they'd be a good place for Influence Battles.

[20:06] * Shadowtext * Influence Battles with other shopkeepers would increase Brains' earning power (advertisement) as well as changing (based on outcome) some sort of hidden "influence"stat that affects how well Feet can negotiate with certain NPCs...

[20:07] * Shadowtext * And in the last Act, when they join the Guild, there could be many Influence Battles during Guild Meetings.

[20:07] * Yanbetari * "influence" is good, because I could see various actions improving your standing with certain groups, like the Guild of Miscreants, to get better jobs/help.

[20:07] * Shadowtext * Perhaps rather than considering them Influence Battles, we could implement Negotiation as a battle type of thing, and make Influence Battles a subset of the Negotiation Battles.

[20:08] * Shadowtext * Yeah, Influence Battles with the Guild of Miscreants would be good, too. More Influence = Better Scenarios.

[20:08] * Shadowtext wishes they had time to make some hilariously over the top animations for Negotiations ala Phoenix Wright.

[20:08] * Yanbetari * OBJECTION!

[20:09] * Yanbetari * It might also work to have Influence Battles when hiring people, and better influence gives them a better starting point as a worker.

[20:10] * Shadowtext * Yeah, that does make sense.

[20:11] * Shadowtext * There would just be one meter for each participant--a Reputation Bar, maybe. And the battles would probably take place as dialogue trees, occasionally offering the option to show some sort of evidence.

[20:12] * Yanbetari * If we did Dialogue Trees, we'd have to make them fairly dynamic and varied.

[20:13] * Shadowtext * Yeah. I was thinking like the ones in Neverwinter Nights.

[20:13] * Shadowtext * And games of that sort.

[20:15] * Shadowtext * It might be nice to have the options show up as nice, big, friendly buttons on screen rather than using the usual "Choose Option" thing.

[20:15] * Shadowtext * Highlighting them to select 'em.

[20:15] * Shadowtext * ...as usual in RPGs, I suppose.

[20:16] * Shadowtext * That'll be for Sei to decide, though, since he's claimed Interface Design or whatever.